The Jerusalem Post has a good article on Toldos Aharon, which links to a great paper by a professor on the group. Recommended reading for those who want to have a better understanding of them.
Additional info in English here.
Maran Rav Gershon Edelstein שליט"א was ahead of the curve.
May we be safe, ברוחניות ובגשמיות, and have good news to share.
I think you're assessment is correct, but this generation is nowhere near ready to hear anything which resembles the truth.
ReplyDeleteI appreciate your writings as a whole. Yet, our communal focus at this time should be on feeling the pain of our suffering brethren. This is not the time and place to opine about the value of the hadlaka of Toldos Ahron.
ReplyDeleteIt comes across as heartless and callous and at the very least it reflects bad judgment.
I am reminded that Reb Moshe z''l voiced criticism about a certain sect in our midst because they view themselves as a zach far zich, not part of klal Yisroel and they don't adequately (as a group) feel the pain of other yidden. Vedal.
"This is not the time and place to opine about the value of the hadlaka of Toldos Ahron."
ReplyDeleteSo when and where is the time and place? Usually people who say such things seem to want to bury something, and hope that a problem disappears magically, rather than doing something to correct or improve it. And if someone writes about it another time, they would likely say that it is not appropriate then either. So nothing would be said, and we would be back to business as usual, which brought about this disaster in the first place.
As an aside, this site is a small endeavor, it is not a large newspaper or website with a regular readership of tens of thousands of readers (if not more), so it is not like I posted this in the middle of ירושלים.
If you don't want to take it from me, see what the Berdichever Rebbe said -
https://twitter.com/hasidic_1/status/1388870873159962625
Among other things, he said that רשב"י wants the victims to be alive more than all this big "הילולא". A Chasidic voice of sanity.
"So when and where is the time and place? Usually people who say such things seem to want to bury something, and hope that a problem disappears magically, rather than doing something to correct or improve it. And if someone writes about it another time, they would likely say that it is not appropriate then either. So nothing would be said, and we would be back to business as usual, which brought about this disaster in the first place."
ReplyDeleteOf course safety issues have to be addressed, especially at this time when the implications are so keenly felt. But now is not the time to take shots on why the people were there in the first place. It is immaterial that the victims were participating or watching something that others my not value. What is important is that people are suffering. It is not the right time to opine that the activity lacked value - in your opinion.
That comes across as callous.
I just looked at the post again. It did not explicitly state what you seem to be objecting to. If you read something more into it, that is your addition.
ReplyDeleteMr. L I have the utmost respect for you but I must side with Anonymous. The people of this generation have little or no capacity to hear the truth. Therefore even though you're right about the irresponsibility of Toldos Aharon no one is going to listen. You'll be called insensitive and worse. Let me share something with you which exemplifies my position. About 2 years ago I was in shul and a certain Kiruv Rabbi was addressing a small group of Russian Jewish collegians. At one point he tells them the following,"Don't look at me as a Rabbi. When I was your age I was totally irreligious(he's also Russian.) He then started rhapsodizing about his favorite Treif dishes that he used to eat. When he finished, I went over to speak with him(we're friendly not friends) and I told him that according to Halacha you're not allowed to speak Loshon Hora about yourself. Of course he dismissed what I said arguing that he said what he said Leshem Kiruv. Shavuos is approaching and we recall the words of Rus,"It was a time when everyone did what was right in their own eyes."
ReplyDelete"according to Halacha you're not allowed to speak Loshon Hora about yourself."
ReplyDeleteI know that there is a story with the Chofetz Chaim zt"l himself who related that he was traveling on a train and speaking to some people about R. Yisroel Meir Kagan from Radin (they didn't know who he was). They spoke very highly of him, but the Chofetz Chaim said that he was not so great, which angered the people, who considered that disrespectful toward one of the gedolei Yisroel. In the end of the story, he said that he learned from that incident that a person shouldn't speak lashon hora even about themselves. My impression from it, however, was that it was not a halachic ruling, but rather more like a humorous story, or just advice.
True. But there is a halacha about not speaking of ones עבירות בין אדם למקום
Deleteרמב"ם הלכות תשובה פרק ב
במה דברים אמורים בעבירות שבין אדם לחבירו אבל בעבירות שבין אדם למקום אינו צריך לפרסם עצמו ועזות פנים היא לו אם גילם אלא שב לפני האל ברוך הוא ופורט חטאיו לפניו ומתודה עליהם לפני רבים סתם וטובה היא לו שלא נתגלה עונו שנאמר אשרי נשוי פשע כסוי חטאה
LB
I usually greet your posts with delight, but this one took me by surprise.
ReplyDeleteYour insinuation (after responding to Anonymous 4:36) is that this fiasco is somehow the fault of the Toldos Aharon faction. I disagree with this for several reasons.
1) Even if the actual pilgrimage may be questionable for ideological reasons, that has no bearing on the issue of who is at fault. The gathering, which is of a religious nature, is not related to the question of blame, which is strictly legal in nature. For all intents and purposes, even if this was a group of Muslims in Mecca, their religion would not be relevant in searching for who is to blame.
(Frankly, I'm surprised that you did made this connection; such a statement may lend an appearance that you are engaging in opportunism, attempting to somehow exploit this tragedy to highlight a disagreement you might have with certain Chassidic philosophy. Of course I don't suspect that you are doing so, but it can be seen that way ).
2) I don't think there is room to blame anyone here; not the police, and not the attendees. These occurrences happen only very rarely- stampedes are not a primary concern when there is overcrowding. Nobody in their wildest nightmares thought of this, nor are they obligated to do so. Tragically in this case it did happen, but that does not mean that it was negligence to not be taken into consideration in the first place (there are other dangers with overcrowding but that is not the discussion here).
3) This "Mezhibuzher Rebbe" is a certified mentally unstable individual, no hyperbole here. (There is another one).
I agree with Old Litvak that this isn't the time to take shots at anyone. I recall "Rabbi" Yitz Greenberg writing a scathing piece blaming Rav Chaim Kanievsky for the deaths from the pandemic. We can't act in a way which will seem to resemble such an odious opinion.
ReplyDeleteI too (along with Old Litvak) am surprised at your response to this event. It may be everybody's fault (that's my opinion) or nobody's fault but certainly not Toldos Aharon's fault. It could have been any Rebbe there. And there is no Rebbe who wouldn't have done it in the same way the Toldos Aharon Rebbe did it in that place at that time.
ReplyDeleteFYI it seems that you aren't aware that the "Berdichever Rebbe" is a well known לץ who should not be taken seriously at all. A bit of research will show you that.
Now let's please get back to the usually higher caliber discussion that takes place on this חשובע blog.
LB
Please write an article about the shanda of the yated sending chabad pamphlets in their shavuos edition.
ReplyDeleteThis time Rabbi Lipshitz has gone too far
LB
I was surprised about that too.
DeleteOf course, they presumably pay for that. If so, it is a type of advertising, and income for the paper. Also, with all his closeness to Rubashkin, it is not so easy for him to refuse such things. At one (or more) of the Rubashkin release anniversary celebrations, they played Eimasai asi mar, and RPL danced along. RPL, you need to take a stand sometimes, say עד כאן. If you felt that Rubashkin was wronged, and acted to right that, that is one thing, but that doesn't mean that we now accept Lubavitch across the board.
While I admire your measured tone...
DeleteThe Yated was founded (yes the USA branch too) on certain bedrock principles, among them a complete rejection of Chabad. No ifs and or buts about it. Some of us can remember when yeshivaleit were buying the Yated in its early years (in some cases with מעשר money) just to support it due to the understanding of the importance of having this newspaper be the soundpiece for these principles. Rabbi Lipshitz is unilaterally breaking faith with the Yated's raison d'etre.
This is no small matter and can't be justified as income for the paper.
LB
It is really an outrage that a newspaper with the name "Yated" could distribute blatant Chabad missionary material. The Israeli Yated was initiated by R Shach as opposition to Chabad, and the American Yated piggybacked that name. That comes with responsibilities.
DeleteI was hoping that this blog would have a full post on this, but apparently your reply to LB will have to suffice.
Thanks as always for being a voice of reason.
While I'm definitely no fan of Chabad I'm not sure that it's fair to call all their literature missionary material(Geulah certainly is.) I didn't see what was enclosed in the paper so perhaps it would be appropriate to disclose that information(I don't read Yated.) Generally Chabad just announces the customs and dates of the Yomim Tovim and that's relatively harmless. I'm not so paranoid about Chabad to believe that if you give them an inch they'll take a mile. I actually have befriended a Lubavich Rabbi and he's allowed me to begin a Gemara shiur on Wednesday nights. I think we need to be clear about what we're dealing with which is to say that not all Lubavichers are our enemies. If it's true that Rav Shach specifically founded Yated in opposition to Chabad then I would be disappointed with the paper's current position. Mr. L please serve as a guide for the perplexed.
ReplyDelete"If it's true that Rav Shach specifically founded Yated in opposition to Chabad"...
DeleteWow that catches me by surprise. I thought in my naiveté that "המפורסמות אינן צריכות ראיה"
1) Please see a book called וזרח השמש: ייסודה ומשנתה של דגל התורה pages 107-109 about the yated being founded due to Hamodia covering Chabad against the wishes of Gedolei Yisroel.
2) Please also see Rabbi Shlomo Lorincz's book במחיצתם של גדולי ישראל - חלק א page 386.
3) שאל אביך ויגדך זקיניך ויאמרו לך
LB
Thanks for your posting, but this leads me to ask,"If there was such an organized response against Chabad, why didn't Dr. Berger mention it in his book." From my experience basically everyone gives Chabad a pass.
DeleteOld Litvak is correct in calling Mr. L a voice of reason, and I would add that's he's also a voice of pragmatism. Very few people put their principles ahead of their pocketbooks, and therefore if Chabad wants to advertise in Yated you can't expect the powers that be to turn them away. Let me share a story which should bring this point across. I used to attend a certain shul which treated Rabbi Sacks OBM with the reverence due to Rav Chaim. While I respected Rabbi Sacks I felt that on occasion he crossed the line in trying to appeal to the entire spectrum of Jews(mir redt nish off dem todt, so I won't give any specific example.) In any event, on one occasion I made a critical comment about Rabbi Sacks which didn't sit well with the congregants. However, there was a Yeshivish fellow who happened to be in the neighborhood and he came to my defense as follows,"My Rov(I won't mention his name because I can't absolutely confirm that this story is true) said that when you clean your house for Pesach throw all Rabbi Sack's books into the fire with your Chometz. A few days later I saw an ad in the Jewish Week for a Pesach excursion and both Rabbi Sacks and this Rov were scheduled to attend. I mentioned this in Shul the next week to that fellow and he said he'd talk to his Rov about it. The following week the guest told me,"I spoke to my Rov and he told me that he spoke to Rabbi Sacks and he retracted those inappropriate things he said." Yes I really believe that. The fact is that the Rabbi Mandels of the world are few and far between and we have to understand and accept that fact.
DeleteMany years have passed since the founding of the Yated Ne'eman in Eretz Yisrael. Another related thing was the founding of Lev L'Achim as an alternative to Yad Le'achim, which was/is under Lubavitch control. Since Rav Schach zt"l and the Lubavitcher Rebbe before him were niftar many years ago, things have calmed down somewhat from the fever pitch of the last years of the late Rebbe's life, and it is understandable if people want to move on and/or reduce tension and disagreement, due to fatigue (there are also many young people who don't know this history, who are naive and inexperienced in certain matters). However, to entirely forget the past and totally discard the lessons we were taught by Rav Schach zt"l and other great people is very foolish and myopic, as many, if not all of the issues still exist, even if possibly at reduced levels now.
Deleteditto
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