A few months ago, in the 5781 שבת שובה Toras Avigdor booklet (p.6-7), Rav Avigdor Miller ז"ל addressed some dangerous distortions in Torah study and teaching, that exist among some Torah students and teachers, including, unfortunately, some identified with the Litvishe community, that can lead to Torah impoverishment and alienation, G-d forbid.
In particular, two distortions were described.
1) Covering too little ground. Getting bogged down in a Talmudic thicket, and not getting to know the vast, beautiful forest around it. It is very important to have context, to get the proverbial big picture, in Torah as in life, for proper understanding, and one doesn't get that from a relative few pages.
Rav Avigdor Miller states emphatically, based on his experience in great ישיבות of the past, that learning Torah does not mean learning merely the first six blatt of a מסכת, albeit with "all rishonim and achronim" in a winter zman. Rather much more was learned. As Rav Miller states, essential Torah principles and wisdom are not limited to the most widely studied pages of Talmudic tractates, but rather appear throughout the vast Talmudic sea (ים התלמוד). And through the תוה"ק in general, of course.
2) Skipping "non-lomdish" sections of gemara. Rav Miller speaks harshly of a rebbi he once had, that, when they came to sections of the Talmud that were not "legalistic", but rather dealt with חכמה, מוסר, eitzos, and yiras shamayim, he would skip them (!).
A wholesome Torah education leads to a wholesome Torah personality. A fragmented and piecemeal Torah education can lead (G-d forbid) to a deficient, semi-educated, fragmented, immature product.
As the saying goes, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
May Hashem help us learn and grow appropriately.
Basically I agree with Rabbi Miller, but I don't like the one size fits all approach. In particular I object to those Rabbis who try to push everyone into doing Daf Yomi. I have a particular Mehalech in learning which works for me but I doubt that it would be appropriate for the masses. I spend about 15 hours on a Blatt until I feel that it's part of me. I think what's most important is that people be true to themselves and find an approach which is appropriate for them.
ReplyDelete"2) Skipping "non-lomdish" sections of gemara. Rav Miller speaks harshly of a rebbi he once had, that, when they came to sections of the Talmud that were not "legalistic", but rather dealt with חכמה, מוסר, eitzos, and yiras shamayim, he would skip them (!)."
ReplyDeleteI would you say that this has largely led to the rise of the "Neo-chassidus movement". The lack of focus on those things has a left a big gaping whole in the hearts and minds of many people. Not to say that Neo-chassidus is the answer but its filling the the vacuum. It has moved well beyond the modern orthodox world and is making tremendous inroads in the yeshivish and chassidush worlds.
BFG - Welcome to the site! You have left some 'shtarkeh' comments, however, I am puzzled by the name you are using, doesn't seem to 'pas' for someone like you. Perhaps you can make a shinui sheim, or לכל הפחות, use just the letters BFG.
DeleteGetting to your point, I think you are very much on target. Bulls eye. Spot on.
That explains, why, at the same time, Rav Miller z"l, a Litvak, but someone who addresses such issues at length, has also had a surge in popularity, even among Chasidim!
Thank you for the warm welcome! The name I use certainly fits however if you prefer I not use it on your blog I will respectfully comply.
DeleteRav Miller was an outlier in the recent yeshivish/litvish world and what it has developed into in regards to his approach to not skipping the non-lomdish parts of learning and his focus on yiras shomayim, the wonders of H's world etc...
Additionally, there is no comparison between his rise in popularity and what you call Neo-chassidus. There are shuls, minyanim, yeshivos, mashpiim that have Neo-chassidus leanings popping up all over and across the full spectrum of the frum gamut.
Whereas Rav Miller's popularity is basically some pamphlets strewn about in shuls for people to peruse during davening and laining. And dare I say that is symptomatic of the issues Rav Miller was trying to combat. There is no "Neo-Miller" movement and there probably will never be. Rav Miller's view included ideas and ways of expressing them are at odds with many of the frum "Americanishe" mindset and sensibilities. It always entertains me when someone quotes Rav Miller on a topic and I think to myself "Oh they read that in the pamphlet this past Shabbos. But they conveniently left out the next idea that he said because they didn't agree with it because it was too harsh or blunt for them."
Agav, I had a Chassideshe Rebbi (not Rebbe) in a non chassidish yeshiva that quoted Rav Miller regularly, including the ideas that many would find offensive to their "Americanishe sensibilities".
I understand what you are saying. However, to say that Rav Miller's popularity is just based on a few pamphlets in Shuls is misleading, as if you are aware of the amount of booklets distributed, it is a massive amount overall. Maybe it just looks like just a few in your local Shul, but a few here, and a few there, throughout the world, add up, as the expression לגבי צדקה goes , פרוטה ופרוטה מצטרפת ועולה לסכום גדול, בע"ה. Also, some people take them home from Shul and they are read at home, by multiple family members. Others see them online, or print them from electronic distribution.
DeleteI don't have the figures in front of me at this moment, but if you compare the amount of copies of תורת אביגדור that go out to the amount of copies of other publications, let's say Yated, Hamodia, Mishacha, Ami, or various 'parsha sheets', Toras Avigdor ב"ה does not need to be ashamed.
Firstly, I didn't say "a few pamphlets". Second, my point was clearly not the quantity. I've been to many shuls in many communities and see how many pamphlets there are. Thats not the point.
DeleteI'm sorry to say this and I mean it with the utmost respect, but once again you miss the forest for the trees. Yes Rav Miller may be popular. But I don't want him to be popular like the Mishpacha and Yated that you read while passing out on your couch on Shabbos in a cholent induced coma. I want him to be popular like Neo-chassidus. You understand? I want his ideas to completely reframe the frum worlds current approach to Torah and Yiddishkeit. Despite the rise in his popularity, in my opinion, this will, unfortunately, never happen.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
DeleteAs in any group, there are different levels. There are some people that look at the R. Miller booklets casually, true. But there are others who study them more intensely. Some people (this goes for other things, such as Neo-Chasidus as well) are serious, intense, true believers, like אברהם אבינו. Other people are somewhat like הרן, who sat on the fence, whose position was, as Rashi states in בראשית, יא:כח, if Avraham wins, I'm with him, if Nimrod wins, I'm on his side. There are not so many Avraham Avinus out there.
If you are comparing superficial feel-good neo-Chasidus with demanding Rav Miller השקפה-מוסר, of course, as usual, more go for the easy and more superficial way. But does that mean that it is more correct? Emphatically not.
A broader following is not necessarily a deeper following.
Mr L, please, I really don't get what you are doing. I didn't say the popularity of Neo-chassidus is any indication that its correct. I didn't say that a broader following is better.
DeleteYou compared the rise of popularity of Neo-chassidus to the rise in popularity of Rav Miller. There is no comparison in terms of the popularity. That is an undeniable and unfortunate fact. Rav Miller's popularity pales in comparison. The effect that it will have on the general population is unfortunately insignificant.
Neo-chassidus also has its subtle tentacles spread much further and deeper into the younger generation of even the litveshe/yeshiveshe crowd then people can imagine.
This is an important subject. It is also a painful subject, because the Litvishe yeshivos do learn at a pretty slow rate. Although most graduates are very skillfull in lomdus, they lack the proper background in many areas.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, learning with Rishonim and Acharonim is vital. If we don't learn in depth we remain amei ha'aretz. The Penei Yehoshua and the Ketzos became what they became with Iyun.
I wonder if there is a happy middle ground somewhere. Either quickening the indepth learning sessions somewhat, or having seperate sedorim/times to learn more material (when I was in yeshiva we did this).
What do you think Mr. L. ?
Yes, I recall it being a serious problem in the past in some places. I heard that it improved subsequently, but am not sure exactly, I cannot be at a every yeshiva to monitor it.
DeleteLitvishe yeshivas are not monolithic though (maybe we will address that more in the future). Some yeshivas are makpid to finish the mesechta they are learning, for example. תבא עליהם ברכה! Also, I believe that in ארץ ישראל the situation is a lot better, ב"ה. Rav Schach זי"ע and other Litvishe gedolim there spoke out and showed the proper way that broad knowledge is needed, vast swathes of Torah expanses must be traversed.
The Vilna Gaon writes clearly about this, as the Maharal did before him, as the gemara itself says, that a person should first cover ground, and then go into fine analysis later.
I'd like to take this discussion, which I think is very interesting and important, in a different direction. The Dec. 25th issue of the Jewish Press which came out today featured an article from one of its staff writers Elliot Resnick which asked the following, "Should people learn Shas?" He argued that Gemara has no practical relevance and therefore people should spend their time learning valuable subjects like Halacha, Mussar and Chasssidus. He even suggested studying the collected works of the Lubavicher Rebbe R"l. We are living in an orphaned generation when everyone does what's right in his own eyes. I understand that your comments are basically addressed to the Yeshiva world, but I think we must remain cognizant of all segments of Orthodox Jewry.
DeleteThanks "Unknown", I finally got my eyes on the column, a few hours ago.
DeleteHere is the url, for those interested -
https://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/columns/should-everyone-learn-shas/2020/12/24/
Maybe it will be the subject of a separate post later.
By the way I'd also like to welcome BFG into the fold. Ours, I believe is an exclusive club, people of Emes who aren't afraid to call a spade a spade. Yes there are blogs in which hundreds of people comment, but what they write is unadulterated drivel.
ReplyDeleteThank you for the warm welcome! I just have to warn you...just because you call it a spade, dont expect me to. :)
Delete@Mr L.
ReplyDeleteI submitted some comments yesterday on several posts but they seem to not have posted.
Please advise if you received them. I was posting them form a phone and couldn't tell if they went through. YK
Thanks for asking. I don't recall any such comments. I even looked in the spam folder now, but didn't see them. Maybe some technical glitch?
ReplyDeleteThanks for checking. Will repost I guess.
Deleteאני פשוט הצטרפתי לבלוג שלך ורוצה להודיע לך את זה, המאמרים שלך פשוט מדהימים ... אהבת להיות חלק מהבלוג שלך. הישאר שמח.
ReplyDelete